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May 20 08 12:32 PM

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F35 vs EF2000 vs Rafale

Now this topic about fighter planes have come a million times up till now you might ask, so why does Nutuk bring it up again?

Simple, since a few days some posters in here (actually WAFF + Defencenet!) claim that Greece will first buy 40-60 EF2000 and from 2014 on 60 F35.

If I understand well these ideas come from the Greek Strategiki forum and as far as I could search it out it does not reflect any "official" decision (except for the 40 new generation fighters, most logically EF2000).

Comming to my question:
Since long Greek forumers have constantly claimed how good the EF2000 would be (since Greece will obviously buy them!) and how lame the F35 was (since Turkey is gonna buy them!).

How comes that Greeks now suddenly have a wish for 40 EF2000 and 60 F35 later? And how do you think that the tranch2 is good enough to cope with the F35 while it is still a question mark whether even the tranch3 can?

Dink Öldü Ermeni Oldunuz Baris Akarsu Öldü Rock´cu Oldunuz. Allah Bülent Ersoy'a Uzun Ömürler Versin.....

Visit the <a href="http://z8.invisionfree.com/Turkish_Grecian/index.php">Turkish & Grecian defense forum </a>

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#2 [url]

May 20 08 12:43 PM

user posted image user posted image

user posted image user posted image

Via Combat Aircraft Magazine Vol.9 No.2

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#3 [url]

May 20 08 1:12 PM

A nice list of only critics Allepou, the same issues can be summoned for any new developped plane greekturkish/smile.gif

Does still not take away that the F35 is the most advanced fighter you can get (except F22).

Dink Öldü Ermeni Oldunuz Baris Akarsu Öldü Rock´cu Oldunuz. Allah Bülent Ersoy'a Uzun Ömürler Versin.....

Visit the <a href="http://z8.invisionfree.com/Turkish_Grecian/index.php">Turkish & Grecian defense forum </a>

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#5 [url]

May 20 08 1:35 PM

QUOTE (o prosfigas @ May 20, 2008 01:17 pm)
but why , because the US says so?

seriously we havent seen a benchmark of this plane and yet it is the worlds most advanced plane ? (bar 22)

No because the countries who have the specifications of the aircraft and placed orders for it are saying so.

If the EF2000 was better would the UK order F35's? Would Italy? They are both in the EF project.

Dink Öldü Ermeni Oldunuz Baris Akarsu Öldü Rock´cu Oldunuz. Allah Bülent Ersoy'a Uzun Ömürler Versin.....

Visit the <a href="http://z8.invisionfree.com/Turkish_Grecian/index.php">Turkish & Grecian defense forum </a>

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#6 [url]

May 20 08 1:39 PM

the UK was a tech contributor to the project , they couldnt not order it. Just as they are in the EF project. But all this brainwash about UBER f-35 superiority is becoming very boring.

ANd who guaranteed you that you or the other countries bar the UK gonna get the full version? more like tha vanilla smells to me (like in the past)

user posted image

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#7 [url]

May 20 08 2:20 PM

Carrying two air to ground weapons and two air to air weapons internally is a design problem. This is not a bomb truck like say an F-4 or A-7 and it's certainly not a dog fighter! This thing has some very big short comings!

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#8 [url]

May 20 08 3:30 PM

QUOTE (Alepou 340MB @ May 20, 2008 02:20 pm)
Carrying two air to ground weapons and two air to air weapons internally is a design problem. This is not a bomb truck like say an F-4 or A-7 and it's certainly not a dog fighter! This thing has some very big short comings!

Who needs a bomb truck nowadays, keyword is precision weapon.

Dink Öldü Ermeni Oldunuz Baris Akarsu Öldü Rock´cu Oldunuz. Allah Bülent Ersoy'a Uzun Ömürler Versin.....

Visit the <a href="http://z8.invisionfree.com/Turkish_Grecian/index.php">Turkish & Grecian defense forum </a>

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#9 [url]

May 20 08 4:16 PM

thats not priority no1 for an aricraft, precision weapons can be delievered from land and inferior aircraft (F16 for example).

Priority No1 for an aircraft is survival in the skies

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#10 [url]

May 20 08 4:17 PM

QUOTE
If the EF2000 was better would the UK order F35's? Would Italy? They are both in the EF project.


Italy is replacing AMX and Tornados with the F35A, and F35B for its stovl carrier.
The UK will also buy F35B for its new carriers, and F35A for its airforce, most likely to replace their tornados or other jets.
They aren't buying F35's to replace the Eurofighter. So what's your point?

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#12 [url]

May 20 08 9:51 PM

QUOTE (Nutuk @ May 20, 2008 03:30 pm)
Who needs a bomb truck nowadays, keyword is precision weapon.

You watch to much CNN WARS!

See what happened when the US decided in it's wisdom to remove the gun from it's F-4s

Google it.

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#13 [url]

May 21 08 5:01 AM

QUOTE (Alepou 340MB @ May 20, 2008 09:51 pm)
You watch to much CNN WARS!


Don't have to, our own experience with bombings in N. Iraq teaches us much more. You don't need a truckload of bombs to disable the desired targets, precision is much more effective.

Dink Öldü Ermeni Oldunuz Baris Akarsu Öldü Rock´cu Oldunuz. Allah Bülent Ersoy'a Uzun Ömürler Versin.....

Visit the <a href="http://z8.invisionfree.com/Turkish_Grecian/index.php">Turkish & Grecian defense forum </a>

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#14 [url]

May 21 08 5:03 AM

QUOTE (Zeus @ May 20, 2008 04:17 pm)

Italy is replacing AMX and Tornados with the F35A, and F35B for its stovl carrier.
The UK will also buy F35B for its new carriers, and F35A for its airforce, most likely to replace their tornados or other jets.
They aren't buying F35's to replace the Eurofighter. So what's your point?

Italy plans 109 F35, that's a lot for only aircraft carriers.

You guys have to tell the point, Greeks are comming up with the idea to procure also F35, why if it is crap anyway?

Dink Öldü Ermeni Oldunuz Baris Akarsu Öldü Rock´cu Oldunuz. Allah Bülent Ersoy'a Uzun Ömürler Versin.....

Visit the <a href="http://z8.invisionfree.com/Turkish_Grecian/index.php">Turkish & Grecian defense forum </a>

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#15 [url]

May 21 08 8:34 AM

Nutuk please read my post again, I said Italy is buying the F35A to replace Tornados and AMX, and the F35B for its new aircraft carrier.


And who said the F35 is crap?

On the contrary, we are waiting for it to actually be proven, before we applaud its capabilities which are on paper. I can write some pretty impressive capabilities on paper too, doesn't mean I will end up with the best aircraft.

Turks on the other hand have been ranting how with the F35 in TUAF, Greece doesn't stand a chance. In response, Turks have been reminded that export F35's will be downgraded, particularly stealth.


I think it is inevitable that Greece, and many other countries, will purchase the F35. It will be the next mass produced fighter and serve in many airforces, like the F16.

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#16 [url]

May 21 08 9:13 AM

QUOTE (Nutuk @ May 21, 2008 05:01 am)
Don't have to, our own experience with bombings in N. Iraq teaches us much more. You don't need a truckload of bombs to disable the desired targets, precision is much more effective.

Who is your opponent in the air? What S.A.M network are you up against?

Enjoy your training.




















But watch out for this guy!!!
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#17 [url]

May 21 08 10:02 AM

QUOTE
DID has covered the recent controversies over Australia’s involvement in the F-35 Lightning II program, amid criticisms that the F-35A will be unable to compete with proliferating SU-30 family aircraft in the region, lacks the required range or response time, and will either be extremely expensive at $100+ million per aircraft in early (2013-2016) production, or will not be available until 2018 or later. The accelerated retirement of Australia’s 22 long-range F-111s in 2010 has sharpened the timing debate in particular, with a recently retired Air Vice-Marshal and the opposition (now governing) Labor Party both weighing in with criticisms and alternative force proposals.

In December 2006, The Australian reported that Defence Minister Brendan Nelson was discussing an A$ 3 billion (about $2.36 billion) purchase of 24 F/A-18F Block II Super Hornet aircraft around 2009-2010. A move that came as “a surprise to senior defence officials on Russell Hill”; but is now an official purchase as requests and contracts work their way through.

The latest items include the new Labor government’s decision to keep the Super Hornet purchase, followed by a contract for training and maintenance equipment worth over $100 million…

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/

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#18 [url]

May 21 08 10:19 AM

QUOTE (Alepou 340MB @ May 21, 2008 09:13 am)

But watch out for this guy!!!
user posted image

Don't worry Alepou.. We have plenty of those guys in Eastern Thrace, attending to occasional training sessions, studying "their" tactics..

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#19 [url]

May 21 08 10:50 AM

cool!

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#20 [url]

May 21 08 5:23 PM

The F-35, even downgraded, will be an excellent aircraft under certain circumstances. Even if half of what is being advertised is true.

It may prove a great danger for an ERIEYE for example, if the plane is flying away from the Aegean, let's say between Crete and Cyprus, far away from other radars.
In a head on confrontation between an F-35 and a Typhoon, where both a/c would be supported by AEW&C planes, the F-35 may have a decisive advantage in BVR. And since Greece would buy the jet anyway, I think it was a mistake that Greece did not take part in the JSF project.

On the other hand, how many times in a war between Greece and Turkey would situations like the ones I mentioned above arise? The F-35 may have very small frontal RCS, but what flight path and altitude can it choose in the Aegean that make it able to show only that frontal RCS to dozens of potential threats simultaneously? And since the F-35 will be detected and targeted, its serious shortcomings will become apparent. Lack of speed and agility may not be compesated by state of the art ESM and ECM. Therefore I think Turkey made a mistake to commit so heavily (if indeed the commitment proves to be as heavy as trumpeted).

Cypriots stand your ground. Don't let them break you. The game did not end with the referendum. Prepare for round 2.


The Turks are not barbarians. They are ... berberians.
Bir berber bir berbere: - Bre berber, gel beraber bir berber dükkânı açalım, demiş.


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I took over an internationally recognised state. I will not deliver a community without an international voice and in search of a guardian.

Al-Qaeda-Anti-Al-Qaeda scum

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